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Jew-Muslim conflict

zizero

I see from your profile you live in Cyprus. Have you ever been to Gaza or any of the occupied territories?
If so, what's it like?
(Dumb question perhaps, but I've never actually talked to someone who was there, all I get is what the media want to tell me...)

I've been. And it ain't pretty. The media may sensationalise the violent aspect of it, but I think the actual intensity of the poverty (in Gaza in particular) is under-reported. As it the scale of the economic damage cause by the settlers, who not only tend to take the best land, but also exploit the IDF's protection to do all sorts of terrible things like cut down olive groves which will then take years (decades?) to regrow.

Reply 201

zizero

1

H&E

I've been. And it ain't pretty. The media may sensationalise the violent aspect of it, but I think the actual intensity of the poverty (in Gaza in particular) is under-reported. As it the scale of the economic damage cause by the settlers, who not only tend to take the best land, but also exploit the IDF's protection to do all sorts of terrible things like cut down olive groves which will then take years (decades?) to regrow.

Do you get in easily? Do you need a visa?

How were the checks to get out again?

For how long were you there?

Were the people nice?

Reply 202

H&E

3

zizero

Do you get in easily? Do you need a visa?

How were the checks to get out again?

For how long were you there?

Were the people nice?

Yes I got in very easily. Lines near Jerusalem extremely blurred.
No checks to get out again for me. Anyone looking Arabic, though, we checked extremely thoroughly (2 armed soldiers asking quite a lot of questions). I've been a couple of times, never for very long; never really engaged with the people - it's not exactly the most relaxing environment for outsiders, for obvious reasons.

Reply 203

kriztinae

14

zizero

I see from your profile you live in Cyprus. Have you ever been to Gaza or any of the occupied territories?
If so, what's it like?
(Dumb question perhaps, but I've never actually talked to someone who was there, all I get is what the media want to tell me...)

no but i went to israel where some of my family lives
and well you have the arab parts and then the jewish parts,
you can tell the diffeence between easily

Reply 204

zizero

1

H&E

Yes I got in very easily. Lines near Jerusalem extremely blurred.
No checks to get out again for me. Anyone looking Arabic, though, we checked extremely thoroughly (2 armed soldiers asking quite a lot of questions). I've been a couple of times, never for very long; never really engaged with the people - it's not exactly the most relaxing environment for outsiders, for obvious reasons.

Do you live in Israel or how come you went there?

Reply 205

H&E

3

zizero

Do you live in Israel or how come you went there?

I was visiting, about two years ago, and was staying in Jerusalem.

Reply 206

Babygal

H&E

I was visiting, about two years ago, and was staying in Jerusalem.

i've been Jeruselem, really great place, not like we see it on tv

Reply 207

material breach

12

kriztinae

john paul jones, we tend to ignore him and refer to an owl speaking to him. it makes perfect sence, i mean no human can get thru o him... so we are trying to go thru an owl :rolleyes:

lol bring on the owl! I was so disappointed when he didnt reply immediately to my owl posts since i had a few more lines up my sleave. was it you who gave me rep? If so thank you very much

Reply 208

kriztinae

14

Speciez99

lol bring on the owl! I was so disappointed when he didnt reply immediately to my owl posts since i had a few more lines up my sleave. was it you who gave me rep? If so thank you very much

hehe yeah... it worked this time too! the owl lives on!

Reply 209

Hobbitz

(quote) In my opinion, I would attribute a lot of the persecution of Jews to the fact that they are a very (underline, bold, caps etc.) small minority. Jews at present account for roughly 14m people worldwide, in numerical terms - Judaism is a minority faith. Despite this (or maybe because of it?), the Jewish people have managed to gain a seemingly inordinate grip on history, literature, science, commerce and politics in the world.

I am no conspiracy theorist and I am trying to state objective points, but I feel that a major reason for the resentment of Jews and their faith, is that they punch 'above their weight' in several territories.

A hallmark of Jewish enterprise is the domination of a country's banking system, this has occured in many of the world's economies (Weimar Germany for one) and led to their expulsion from England in 1290.

Jewish merchants supplied the expertise to establish cotton mills during the Transatlantic Slave Trade and also provided capital. In short, Judaism has a history of enterprise, financial prudence and the power that this brings - this has occurred throughout history and led to their resentment throughout history - Palestine has only added fuel to a pre-existing fire.
(quote)

Just thought that I would draw your attention to how this whole post started, Jews are supposed to appoligise for being sucessful as we are only a small race/religion......

Reply 210

Jonatan

13

Hobbitz

(quote) In my opinion, I would attribute a lot of the persecution of Jews to the fact that they are a very (underline, bold, caps etc.) small minority. Jews at present account for roughly 14m people worldwide, in numerical terms - Judaism is a minority faith. Despite this (or maybe because of it?), the Jewish people have managed to gain a seemingly inordinate grip on history, literature, science, commerce and politics in the world.

I am no conspiracy theorist and I am trying to state objective points, but I feel that a major reason for the resentment of Jews and their faith, is that they punch 'above their weight' in several territories.

A hallmark of Jewish enterprise is the domination of a country's banking system, this has occured in many of the world's economies (Weimar Germany for one) and led to their expulsion from England in 1290.

Jewish merchants supplied the expertise to establish cotton mills during the Transatlantic Slave Trade and also provided capital. In short, Judaism has a history of enterprise, financial prudence and the power that this brings - this has occurred throughout history and led to their resentment throughout history - Palestine has only added fuel to a pre-existing fire.
(quote)

Just thought that I would draw your attention to how this whole post started, Jews are supposed to appoligise for being sucessful as we are only a small race/religion......

Actually Jewish influence is not as "above its weight" as you write. Jews make up a very small minority of most countries population and if they are overepresented one place ( say banking) it only means that they are underepresented soemwhere else ( labour unions as an example).

In practice Jews have quite a minor influence in most countries except Israel and teh US. Now, many people like to stress the amount of Jewish influence on US politics when it comes to teh Israel-Palestine question but they fail to mention Muslim influence on European politics. The bottom line is that a country's population is ultimately going to affect its politics which is why the US tends to take Israel's side in politics wehreas France ( with its rather large proportion of Muslim immigrants ) tend to be more supportative of the Palestinian side.

Reply 211

kriztinae

14

Fly By

JEWS VS MUSLIMS

ROUND 1

FIGHT!!

if i saw you id slap you

Reply 212

Weejimmie

1

Hobbitz

(quote)
A hallmark of Jewish enterprise is the domination of a country's banking system, this has occured in many of the world's economies (Weimar Germany for one) and led to their expulsion from England in 1290. Untrue. Jews were involved with German banking and industries in numbers disproportionate to their number in the population, but they certainly didn't dominate it

Jewish merchants supplied the expertise to establish cotton mills during the Transatlantic Slave Trade and also provided capital.

Eh? What expertise did jewish bankers have in milling cotton? There was a long-established woollen milling industry in Lancashire and- still-more- Yorkshire which provided workers with skills that could be adapted to cotton. If you take a look at the companies and individuals who invested in the slave trade they were nearly all local ship-owners and merchants with money made from other enterprises.

In short, Judaism has a history of enterprise, financial prudence and the power that this brings - this has occurred throughout history and led to their resentment throughout history - Palestine has only added fuel to a pre-existing fire.

More important still is the explosion of jewish talent after the fall of the ghettos began in the seventeenth century. In Germany jews were far more involved in the chemical industry than any other: it was the genius of Haber that enabled Germany to fight on in World War I after about 1915 and the organisational genius of Rathenau which stopped Germany starving sooner. Look at the contribution of jews to modern literature, philosophy, popular and classical music and science: all the skills devoted to talmudic obscurities for centuries applied to things which affected the real world.

Reply 213

Spectre

The Jewish and Muslim conflict will never be resolved because if you’d bother to read the Quran Allah does infact condemn the Jewish people as they were the chosen people and they let him down. Unless the Quran is changed then I don’t see how anything can ever chance.

Reply 214

an Siarach

15

Spectre

The Jewish and Muslim conflict will never be resolved because if you’d bother to read the Quran Allah does infact condemn the Jewish people as they were the chosen people and they let him down. Unless the Quran is changed then I don’t see how anything can ever chance.

This is assuming that 1) there will always be people who read the Quran and 2) that these people will always interpret it in an extremist manner.

Reply 215

ThornsnRoses

11

DoctorNO

Muslim hostility to jews dates back to their Prophet Muhammed who in the Quran said...

•

Quran 005.082 (YUSUFALI)

"Strongest among men in enmity to the believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the believers wilt thou find those who say, "We are Christians": because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant.

"

Here we go again...i think you should read a book dude. Try reading something about the Arabic/Islamic Empire in Spain, they welcomed the Jews and in fact people from all other religions...whilst the Christians were too busy on a killing spree...

Its only natural that powerful people, or people with an agenda exploit their power, from whatever religion, faith, or country...its just human nature. You cant blame a whole faith and a way of being on the actions of a handful.

This thread is stupid.

Reply 216

Hobbitz

only the bottem two parts of my post are my own, the rest is a quote from the begginnig of this thread not my own thought!!!!

Reply 217

Outrageous

jamlan

Judaism is the most demonised and persecuted faith in history. A lot of the persecution dealt out by christians in the middle ages can be attributed to what was supposedly said at the trial of Christ (his blood be on us and on our children). I was wondering if the conflict between Jews and Muslims is entirely due to the creation of modern Israel, but has spilt out to other areas (synagogue bombed in Argentina), or if there is the same kind of historical back story to it.

Yes the unresolved issue of the state of israel (which by palestinian muslims and thus most other muslims is considered illegal as the palestinians were deprived of a land and are now reduced to second rate citizens) seems to be the issue.

History shows that albeit a special tax would have had to been paid in "islamic" nations, but that jews coexisting with a majority of muslims in muslim countries have avoided persecution and other hate attacks. Probably because Islam evidently has given both jews and christians the status of "people of the book" as there is the whole "one god" commonground between the three.

Also jewish and christian women are lawful to muslim mean in marriage without conversion one might add. In judaism you see, the religious heritage is determined through the woman/mother. Not the father. So one is ony a jew if one's mother is. The reverse holds true for muslims.

I don't know of any religion that in particular condemns judaism or others. However, yes when you believe in judaism you also believe in its rules and laws as laid down in the Torah (and Talmud of course). And you will find controversial passages in all three books (torah, quran and bible). There are for instance passages prohibiting close bonds with people of the book as you do tend to take on the traits of those you associate with to a certain level. There is also passages warning against enemity towards muslims from these groups. But to understand these passages you ultimately need some knowledge into the time when they were revealed. Battles were fought between the three and there were crusades too. For all three not just muslims. So lets not make this into a islam vs. the world deal.

Anyways I may have come off track, but this was to highlight that many muslims will take these passages (swift access through online translations) and use them to justify their antisemitism. If antisemitism was to be part of islam then all logical sense would question why on earth or how you could marry their women when you simultanously preach hate against their people? Doesn't make sense and I doubt you could woo a woman while hating her.

Antisemitism among muslims? Yes. Not all but a great deal do believe in it. However, when asked for their justification most will turn to the Israel / Palestine conflict. IN fact I don't know of any terrorist acts as those witnessed by people in the past 50 years before the rise of Israel. I think essentially its this solidarity bond between most arabs and most muslims. However, many funny enough seem void to the fact that the sources they claim to believe in (apart from the quran) seem to not condone antisemitism.

There is a hadith (equates to the jewish talmud if you will) which talks of jews going to see the prophet muhammad. Why? Well they had their reasons. There were those who naturally hated him and dispised him and wanted him dead (I believe a jewess tried to poison him by sending him some food). Then there were those intrigued by him. Some wanted to have their kids converted. He refused their request with the reason that there is no compulsion in islam.

In modern day there are many quranic passages and many hadiths which have been used to show just how terrible islam is and how it wants to destroy the world. each to his own I guess. But these claims are false. Its stupid to drag out a random passage without its entire context (either entire chapter/surah or just the part relevant) at hand too. I can do the same and not just with the quran but with the torah and bible. The picture will be grim.

The fact as that as much as people of the book are portrayed in a shall we say negative way they are also shown in a positive way. The whole issue of jihad well if they stop fighting you then you should cease too. But if they drive you from your homes and attack you then you should do them same. Albeit transgression is warned against (verse 190 in chapter 2) it is only condoned if the enemy refuses to stop transgressing and if thats the only mean avaliable to retaliate back with.

Obviously the study is much more extensive and I don't know everything. But I do know that muslims are not by nature antisemitic. Well they are not allowed to be. Then again you have hypocrits. The problem of today dates back to 1948. Thats the root. Before that jews have been livings among muslims peacefully. They have their colonies in and still do I imagine in many muslim crountries. How to we kill this evil of a conflict? Solve the problem for palestinians. HOwever, there is still the problem that even if a peace process was reached there will be those militant groups who believe in the utter destruction of the jews and that is what I find disturbing. Just as find it disturbing the ethnic cleansing of muslims during Milosovic and Jenin and well now too. This must cease. Stop making an entire people pay the price for some peoples mistakes/actions. It's just not right. Hope that answers a bit.

Reply 218

WildAmerican

Jonatan is a jew and is afraid to admit it in public. Now now, is that any way to be mr chickydee?

Reply 219

randdom

20

WildAmerican

Jonatan is a jew and is afraid to admit it in public. Now now, is that any way to be mr chickydee?

Didin't he say that he grandfather was a jew but he isn't one. If he says that then I believe him and I don't see why we have any reason to doubt him.

Jew-Muslim conflict

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